Curse

Rodnak · Mar 18, 2010, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Being new to the forum, all these abbrevations used for (popular) skills arent helping me.
Very difficult, when i dont get what skill is meant.

Is there a referance list to look at what popular skill the abbrevation is?!

I know most of mine by reading each guide in each profession's section. So in the warrior guide you get to know most of the warrior abbreviation and in the Monk guide those of the monk, etc etc.

Chthon · Mar 19, 2010, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lodar Aric

Have you considered Aura of the Lich instead of Jagged Bones on Olias? I tend to run that with Masochism on my bomber and it seems to work well enough for me. (Its not 100% perfect though as sometimes they don't use it at the right time).

Assuming your summon skill(s) recharge fast enough to use every corpse if you wanted to, JB gives more minions per time than AotL. On top of that, the hero AI does not use AotL right at all. JB > AotL for hero builds. (Though neither is so good as to preclude dipping into secondary elites like Signet of Removal, Empathic Removal, IJAFW, etc. if you really need them.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

The problem with relying almost totally on hench healers/protectors is that your crucial "keep-team-alive" skills are being held by runeless, and often stupid, henchies that you can't even micro if you want to. In many areas, that may not be a problem especially in NM. But in tougher HM areas, runeless henchies are more likely to die than my fully runed heroes.

Henchies skill bars and performance also varies according to the area so the more popular 3-heroes build usually have at least 1 hero healer. Otherwise the team's performance would be more reliant on the areas themselves.

This. Mhenlo+Lina do NOT cut it against difficult content in HM. Even for NM, the huge increase in saving power of decent prot/healer heroes over the hench makes everything so much smoother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dagrdagaz

Being new to the forum, all these abbrevations used for (popular) skills arent helping me.
Very difficult, when i dont get what skill is meant.

Is there a referance list to look at what popular skill the abbrevation is?!

The wiki has redirects and disambiguation pages if you enter popular abbreviations in its search bar. You can also always ask specific questions either in the thread that mentions it or in the Q&A forum.

Also, you can usually figure out what a skill is from context plus the wiki. The context should give you the class the skill is from and a general idea of what it does. Scanning down the skill index on the wiki for that class should usually lead you to just one skill that matches the abbreviation and does what the skill is purported to do.

Lodar Aric · Mar 19, 2010, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Assuming your summon skill(s) recharge fast enough to use every corpse if you wanted to, JB gives more minions per time than AotL. On top of that, the hero AI does not use AotL right at all. JB > AotL for hero builds. (Though neither is so good as to preclude dipping into secondary elites like Signet of Removal, Empathic Removal, IJAFW, etc. if you really need them.)

I'll give Jagged another try then (or those other elites you mentioned), i used to use it but switched to AOTL a while back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

This. Mhenlo+Lina do NOT cut it against difficult content in HM. Even for NM, the huge increase in saving power of decent prot/healer heroes over the hench makes everything so much smoother.

By prot/healer heroes do you mean something like an ER Prot and necro or rit healer? I've tried to use monk heroes for prot and healing and have had problems with energy, especially in HM. Just seems to me that monk heroes are better suited to using Smiting. When i was doing vanquishing i tended to use a ER Prot hero and a healer henchie and that was it, if i needed more i would put some heals on the SOS rit.

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2010, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Don't mean to butt in, but ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

This. Mhenlo+Lina do NOT cut it against difficult content in HM. Even for NM, the huge increase in saving power of decent prot/healer heroes over the hench makes everything so much smoother.

They do, in fact I just did today's ZB (Bogroot Growths, HM) with just Mhenlo + Kaolai + Spirit Light on one of my heroes ...

EFGJack · Mar 19, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

This. Mhenlo+Lina do NOT cut it against difficult content in HM. Even for NM, the huge increase in saving power of decent prot/healer heroes over the hench makes everything so much smoother.

I have to disagree with this also. I've completed every possible zone with Mhenlo & Lina on HM on my warrior without any trouble. In some areas I frenzylock with a hammer.

Heroes have been out for over three years now, I think it's about time people learn some micro-management and slap prot on their heroes, it takes 1-2 skills and 25-40% of their attribute allocation (which is not too much considering what you get for it).

(I didn't read all of the responses to this thread so don't sue me if somebody mentioned this already) To OP: The most ideal setup you can run on your warrior is two monk heroes and one necro hero. The monks can supply all the prot, warrior buffs and AE you want, while the necro provides whatever utility you want from Pure Was Li Ming to Dark Fury to Splinter (although the monks are perfectly capable of providing Splinter...).

I can throw you with some templates if you're interested.

Daesu · Mar 19, 2010, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Don't mean to butt in, but ...

They do, in fact I just did today's ZB (Bogroot Growths, HM) with just Mhenlo + Kaolai + Spirit Light on one of my heroes ...

What Chthon means is that the Mhenlo AND Lina team does not cut it in HM. He is referring to just bringing damage skills on your heroes and delegating all the healing and protection to Mhenlo and Lina in HM.

If you have Spirit Light, then you are already not doing the same thing as what Chthon is talking about.

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2010, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Well my hero had just Kaolai and Spirit Light - which is certainly less healing than Lina - and I still made it through Bogroot Growths with no pain. I've also done Lina + Mhenlo with no heals on my heroes (although they of course have non-damage skills, like Frozen Soil). It works. It's just that since Mhenlo + Lina don't have party heals, and since heroes have such godly reflexes with Kaolai, a copy of Kaolai somewhere is a good investment, unless you're applying aggro techniques for every mob when it's not necessary.

Nonetheless I'll agree that in the tougher areas you can't go without a player-controlled copy of Prot Spirit. If you don't want to execute aggro techniques too often, then Aegis is a good spell to have player-controlled as well.

Daesu · Mar 19, 2010, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well my hero had just Kaolai and Spirit Light - which is certainly less healing than Lina - and I still made it through Bogroot Growths with no pain. I've also done Lina + Mhenlo with no heals on my heroes (although they of course have non-damage skills, like Frozen Soil). It works. It's just that since Mhenlo + Lina don't have party heals, and since heroes have such godly reflexes with Kaolai, a copy of Kaolai somewhere is a good investment, unless you're applying aggro techniques for every mob when it's not necessary.

If you are bringing PwK and Spirit Light, you already have some investment in restoration. Then bringing Lina along becomes added prots into your team for a more defensive setup, so that doesn't contradict what we said.

I usually bring Mhenlo along even though I have a similar setup with an ER, SoS, and MM. Would it still work if I replace Cynn with Lina? Probably (even though in my case I already have prots on my ER and would be a waste but I think I have made my point).

Quote:

Nonetheless I'll agree that in the tougher areas you can't go without a player-controlled copy of Prot Spirit. If you don't want to execute aggro techniques too often, then Aegis is a good spell to have player-controlled as well.

And having a player controllable PS already makes a big difference, which is why I dont usually bring Lina.

Jeydra · Mar 19, 2010, 04:07 PM // 16:07

I had Mhenlo + PwK + Spirit Light (no Lina). If you agree PwK + Spirit Light doesn't heal as well as Lina, then yes it does contradict what you said - Mhenlo + Lina should be capable enough in HM.

Player controlled Prot Spirit makes a big difference, but you don't have to use an ER hero to be able to use that Prot Spirit - Necro, Ele, even Para heroes should be perfectly capable of using it.

Neo Atomisk · Mar 19, 2010, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Minions Walls + SY! + henchmen healers work for me.
On my warrior, I would run discord + brave daggers and only 1 healer henchmen and we'd steamroll areas. (please don't say that discord sucks on warrior, jagged strike + asuran scan is pro)
Now, I'm running a similar team build (orders ER, Curses Bomber and SoS melee support) to yours with an imbagon and I find the largest issue is removal of hexes and conditions, so I'm considering something like a PnH hero over Xandra, Imbagon+PnH channeling+Minion wall+1 hero monk will hopefully do the trick.

Rodnak · Mar 19, 2010, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo Atomisk

Minions Walls + SY! + henchmen healers work for me.
On my warrior, I would run discord + brave daggers and only 1 healer henchmen and we'd steamroll areas. (please don't say that discord sucks on warrior, jagged strike + asuran scan is pro)
Now, I'm running a similar team build (orders ER, Curses Bomber and SoS melee support) to yours with an imbagon and I find the largest issue is removal of hexes and conditions, so I'm considering something like a PnH hero over Xandra, Imbagon+PnH channeling+Minion wall+1 hero monk will hopefully do the trick.

After seeing Daesu's builds I thought I try that out (and so I did). With that being said my heroes now are a Curses bomber, ER Prot and a SoS Healer. With the Bomber having Foul Feast + Infuse Condition and the ER has got Convert Hexes. The condition removal is a quite good imo, the only problem is the hexes. They're not getting removed as much as I want them to be removed. So I'm looking for a solution to that problem.

Daesu · Mar 20, 2010, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rodnak

After seeing Daesu's builds I thought I try that out (and so I did). With that being said my heroes now are a Curses bomber, ER Prot and a SoS Healer. With the Bomber having Foul Feast + Infuse Condition and the ER has got Convert Hexes. The condition removal is a quite good imo, the only problem is the hexes. They're not getting removed as much as I want them to be removed. So I'm looking for a solution to that problem.

Most of the hexes that I encounter can be out healed, but feel free to tweak the build to include more hex removal if you wish.

One should tweak their heroes build according to the area anyway, if they want optimal performance.

Daesu · Mar 20, 2010, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I had Mhenlo + PwK + Spirit Light (no Lina). If you agree PwK + Spirit Light doesn't heal as well as Lina, then yes it does contradict what you said - Mhenlo + Lina should be capable enough in HM.

I brought up Lina because I usually bring Mhenlo anyway and when it comes to Lina, you are mainly talking about prots more than heals. I also assume that if you are already bringing Lina, then your heroes are not carrying any form of protection spells, including the communing defensive spirits otherwise you are just adding more prots into the mix and is a totally different build issue.

I think most of us would agree that a runed hero is generally better than a runeless hero. Even if you simply take Lina's skill bar, fit it into Dunkoro, fully rune him and you can safely predict better results from prots casting.

The issue is whether it is worth commiting a hero slot to prots considering the opportunity cost of commiting the same hero slot to orders. I would say it depends on the area. In many tougher HM areas, the ability to customize a hero's build for much higher energy capacity than Lina, PLUS player controllable prots, PLUS runes and equipment makes a prot hero slot more worth it than committing the same slot to orders. In the easier areas, it can be the other way round.

Quote:

Player controlled Prot Spirit makes a big difference, but you don't have to use an ER hero to be able to use that Prot Spirit - Necro, Ele, even Para heroes should be perfectly capable of using it.

The ER hero is just an example of an efficient build to dish out prots. I dont think anybody said it is not possible for any other classes to do this. They have to be judged on a build by build basis though.

Chthon · Mar 21, 2010, 02:56 AM // 02:56

We're kinda heading off-topic with Mhenlo and Lina here, but I suppose I should clarify a little.

Damage mitigation is not limited to monk enchantments, or even to ally-targeting buffs. You can run a great deal of non-traditional mitigation and some diffuse healing on your frontline and midline builds and get away with no backline at all. It works, and in fact you did it. In a sense, this comes back to Avarre's "duality" concept. The backline heal and mitigation roles are chopped up and distributed among the entire party.

I left this out because I didn't think OP and several other contributors were yet at the level of experience where that sort of concept even makes sense. Like Daesu said, I was trying to talk people out of running Mhenlo+Lina+6 purely offensive builds. Interposing the fact that you can (and even should) play the game in a way where there is no such thing as a "purely offensive build" in the first place would have caused confusion.

AtomicMew · Mar 21, 2010, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well my hero had just Kaolai and Spirit Light - which is certainly less healing than Lina - and I still made it through Bogroot Growths with no pain.

While that's true, bogroots isn't exactly a tough area. And I'm assuming spiritway? Spiritway does have a ton of innate damage mitigation.

Neo Atomisk · Mar 22, 2010, 05:47 PM // 17:47

I actually was messing around on my paragon last night, and I decided to swap out the rt/mo for a PnH healer - works like a charm.

Jeydra · Mar 23, 2010, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

While that's true, bogroots isn't exactly a tough area. And I'm assuming spiritway? Spiritway does have a ton of innate damage mitigation.

That's the whole point - if you can already bring a ton of innate damage mitigation while still dealing big damage, why bother with another Monk? I didn't use any defensive Communing spirits either, yet I went through Bogroots (and, later, Rragar's + Raven's Point) easily. The teambuild is more fragile in general, but not so fragile that it explodes suddenly, and generally when it wipes it's because I didn't apply aggro techniques or when overaggro'ed. Yet even overaggro may not wipe the team, for example in today's ZM (Golem) I aggro'ed 3 groups of Destroyers at the same time and though some H/H died, I didn't wipe. I'm close to concluding that this teambuild is much superior to my previous teams. All that's left is to try it against Slaver's HM sometime.

@Daesu - point is that the only prots you'll ever need are Prot Spirit and Aegis, and to a lesser extent Spirit Bond + SoA. Both can be brought as a secondary attribute. That's how my teams work by the way, I have a micro'able Prot Spirit and Aegis but no ER hero.

@Chthon - it should also be said though that there exist purely offensive builds that "just happen" to provide strong defence as well (e.g. AP + spamming the Vanguard Assassin). That said, when in doubt, running more defence is never wrong. At worst, you'll just take more time to clear the area; at best, you guarantee yourself success.

Daesu · Mar 23, 2010, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Daesu - point is that the only prots you'll ever need are Prot Spirit and Aegis, and to a lesser extent Spirit Bond + SoA. Both can be brought as a secondary attribute. That's how my teams work by the way, I have a micro'able Prot Spirit and Aegis but no ER hero.

I think we are in agreement then and what you said doesn't surprise me. The ER hero just fits easily to the 3-heroes team build.

For a long time, Sabway and Discordway only have 2 protection spells, PS and Aegis. Also most ER builds do not just bring prots. They can also bring infuse (which lowers your need for other red barring), hex removal, and some include offensive smites like SoH as added bonus.